Textual issues : 閭長者楊倩 - Chinese Text Project

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Discussion -> Textual issues -> 闾长者杨倩

This thread relates to:

《韩非子·外储说右上》 #162

2011-09-22 15:53:53闾长者杨倩
Posted by: shamanhill	Is this the right place to post corrections? In 韩非子外储说右上 -> 162　you have 问长者杨倩 where I believe the text should read 闾长者杨倩. 致敬
Posted by: shamanhill

2011-09-26 03:46:07闾长者杨倩
Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)	Thanks for posting your suggestion. The edition that the CTP text is based upon does read "问长者杨倩": ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&... Do you know of some other edition which reads "闾", or some reason for altering the text?
Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)

2011-09-26 11:21:54闾长者杨倩
Posted by: remnant	王焕镳's 韩非子选 has 闾长者 per shamanhill's suggestion. Wang Huanbiao's edition used the 浙江书局翻刻宋明道本 as his base and compared it against the collations of numerous other commentators and collators. Note that the full sentence reads: 问其所知闾长者杨倩. "He inquired of a village elder whom he knew -- Yang Jing..." The fact to note here is that the character 问 ( inquired) appears at the beginning of the sentence, so it seems that scribal error could very well have resulted in 问 being copied out a second time where the proper character was the extremely similar (structurally) character 闾. Note that in this particular sentence, 问 in the second instance would not make sense so I think 闾 is indeed correct. This type of error is what is refered to as 字近而误 (error resulting from a neighboring character) or 涉上下文而误 (error resulting from text above or below [the passage in question]) in traditional textual criticism. See examples in 王叔岷's 斠雠学(p. 300) and 管锡华's 汉语古籍校勘学 (starting p. 105).

2011-09-26 11:21:54闾长者杨倩

Posted by: remnant

王焕镳's 韩非子选 has 闾长者 per shamanhill's suggestion. Wang Huanbiao's edition used the 浙江书局翻刻宋明道本 as his base and compared it against the collations of numerous other commentators and collators.

Note that the full sentence reads: 问其所知闾长者杨倩. "He inquired of a village elder whom he knew -- Yang Jing..." The fact to note here is that the character 问 ( inquired) appears at the beginning of the sentence, so it seems that scribal error could very well have resulted in 问 being copied out a second time where the proper character was the extremely similar (structurally) character 闾. Note that in this particular sentence, 问 in the second instance would not make sense so I think 闾 is indeed correct.

This type of error is what is refered to as 字近而误 (error resulting from a neighboring character) or 涉上下文而误 (error resulting from text above or below [the passage in question]) in traditional textual criticism. See examples in 王叔岷's 斠雠学(p. 300) and 管锡华's 汉语古籍校勘学 (starting p. 105).

2011-09-26 11:53:53闾长者杨倩
Posted by: remnant	王焕镳's 韩非子选 has 闾长者 per shamanhill's suggestion. Wang Huanbiao's edition used the 浙江书局翻刻宋明道本 as his base and compared it against the collations of numerous other commentators and collators. Note that the full sentence reads: 问其所知闾长者杨倩. "He inquired of a village elder whom he knew -- Yang Jing..." The fact to note here is that the character 问 ( inquired) appears at the beginning of the sentence, so it seems that scribal error could very well have resulted in 问 being copied out a second time where the proper character was the extremely similar (structurally) character 闾. Note that in this particular sentence, 问 in the second instance would not make sense so I think 闾 is indeed correct. This type of error is what is refered to as 字近而误 (error resulting from a neighboring character) or 涉上下文而误 (error resulting from text above or below [the passage in question]) in traditional textual criticism. See examples in 王叔岷's 斠雠学(p. 300) and 管锡华's 汉语古籍校勘学 (starting p. 105).

2011-09-26 11:53:53闾长者杨倩

Posted by: remnant

2011-09-27 14:52:30闾长者杨倩
Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)	Thanks remnant. What I was looking for was further specific evidence to support the particular emendation - for example another early edition of the text or quotation of the same text which would also support the proposed change; 王叔岷 is careful to cite these as confirmation in his examples. 韩非子集解 lists a few such texts including 意林: ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&... ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&... The 意林 version actually reads "问闾长者". I think this is probably enough to support shamanhill's emendation, so I've added it to the database - thanks a lot to both of you for your help.

2011-09-27 14:52:30闾长者杨倩

Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)

Thanks remnant. What I was looking for was further specific evidence to support the particular emendation - for example another early edition of the text or quotation of the same text which would also support the proposed change; 王叔岷 is careful to cite these as confirmation in his examples.

韩非子集解 lists a few such texts including 意林:
ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&...
ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&...
The 意林 version actually reads "问闾长者". I think this is probably enough to support shamanhill's emendation, so I've added it to the database - thanks a lot to both of you for your help.

2011-09-28 05:52:54闾长者杨倩
Posted by: remnant	Yeah, I was working with limited resources when I posted my first response. But as there was sufficient inferential evidence to make an inductively reasoned case, I thought the revision was warranted. Anyway, I have done a bit more research to back it up per your suggestion as follows. Wang Xianshen’s (王先慎) 韩非子集解 in the 新编诸子集成 series has “问其所知闾长者杨倩” as his accepted text. His note reads as follows: “先慎曰：乾道本‘闾’作‘问’，赵本脱，拾补作‘闾’。庐文弨云：‘闾’字脱，选注有，意林同。顾广圻云：当作‘闾’。韩诗外传云：‘问里人’，说苑、晏子春秋同。先慎案：庐、顾说是。艺文类聚、御览引并作‘闾’，今据补。” Both the 乾道本 and the 赵本 ultimately derive from the same source: the 赵本 was based on the 乾道本 but also made reference to other extent versions. Lu Wenchao cites its occurrence in the Li Shan’s commentary of juan 42 of the Wenxuan, as well as in the Yilin. (Although the implication of Lu’s wording is that it appeared as “问其所知闾长者”, not “问其所知问闾长者” per the Yilin edition Don saw). Gu Guangqi cites three sources where the story is paraphrased as “问里人” “Asked a neighbor”, with the implication that 里 is used as a synonym for 闾(and possible as a homophone or dialect form, given the phonetic similarity between 里 and 闾). (The paraphrasing examples also make it very clear how a clerical error could have resulted from the direct juxtaposition of 问 and 闾, as the most concise rendering of 问其所知问闾长者 would be 问闾人, and in fact it is just such a formulation that Don’s version of Yilin seems to contain. It is understandable why a scribe would have paraphrased it as 问里人 in order to avoid the confusion of the adjacent placement of 问 and 闾. Wang then further strengthens Lu and Gu’s case by adding citations in Yiwen leiju and Taiping yulan to the list of texts where the relevant wording is directly quoted as 闾. Each of Li Shan’s commentary, Yiwen leiju, Taiping yulan and Yilin predates the Qiandao and Zhao editions, so should be given equal or greater weight. So, bottom line is that the transmitted versions of the text itself either omit the character or use 问, but the transmitted versions of texts that quote it all use 闾. I would conclude that the transmitted Hanfeizi was in error and was corrected by reference to quotes in other texts.

2011-09-28 05:52:54闾长者杨倩

Posted by: remnant

Yeah, I was working with limited resources when I posted my first response. But as there was sufficient inferential evidence to make an inductively reasoned case, I thought the revision was warranted.

Anyway, I have done a bit more research to back it up per your suggestion as follows.
Wang Xianshen’s (王先慎) 韩非子集解 in the 新编诸子集成 series has “问其所知闾长者杨倩” as his accepted text. His note reads as follows:

“先慎曰：乾道本‘闾’作‘问’，赵本脱，拾补作‘闾’。庐文弨云：‘闾’字脱，选注有，意林同。顾广圻云：当作‘闾’。韩诗外传云：‘问里人’，说苑、晏子春秋同。先慎案：庐、顾说是。艺文类聚、御览引并作‘闾’，今据补。”

Both the 乾道本 and the 赵本 ultimately derive from the same source: the 赵本 was based on the 乾道本 but also made reference to other extent versions. Lu Wenchao cites its occurrence in the Li Shan’s commentary of juan 42 of the Wenxuan, as well as in the Yilin. (Although the implication of Lu’s wording is that it appeared as “问其所知闾长者”, not “问其所知问闾长者” per the Yilin edition Don saw).

Gu Guangqi cites three sources where the story is paraphrased as “问里人” “Asked a neighbor”, with the implication that 里 is used as a synonym for 闾(and possible as a homophone or dialect form, given the phonetic similarity between 里 and 闾). (The paraphrasing examples also make it very clear how a clerical error could have resulted from the direct juxtaposition of 问 and 闾, as the most concise rendering of 问其所知问闾长者 would be 问闾人, and in fact it is just such a formulation that Don’s version of Yilin seems to contain. It is understandable why a scribe would have paraphrased it as 问里人 in order to avoid the confusion of the adjacent placement of 问 and 闾.

Wang then further strengthens Lu and Gu’s case by adding citations in Yiwen leiju and Taiping yulan to the list of texts where the relevant wording is directly quoted as 闾. Each of Li Shan’s commentary, Yiwen leiju, Taiping yulan and Yilin predates the Qiandao and Zhao editions, so should be given equal or greater weight.

So, bottom line is that the transmitted versions of the text itself either omit the character or use 问, but the transmitted versions of texts that quote it all use 闾. I would conclude that the transmitted Hanfeizi was in error and was corrected by reference to quotes in other texts.

2011-09-28 06:08:15闾长者杨倩
Posted by: remnant	One correction to my comment: "the most concise rendering of 问其所知问闾长者" should read "the most concise rendering of 问其所知闾长者"
Posted by: remnant

2011-09-28 06:14:42闾长者杨倩
Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)	Thanks again remnant. I should have been clearer when I mentioned the 意林; its version differs significantly from the transmitted 韩非子 text, and there is no "问其所知" in it at all, only "...而酒不售，遂致于酸。问闾长者杨倩，倩曰...". You can see the whole text here: ctext.org/library.pl?if=en&...
Posted by: dsturgeon (Donald Sturgeon)

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